ļ»æEpisode 92. A Conversation about Wellbeing in America: Interview with Becky Payne
Michelle Rathman: Hello one and all, and welcome back to a brand-new episode of "The Rural Impact." I'm Michelle Rathman, and I'm always so grateful that you have joined us for another conversation that does work hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything, or as I say all the time, rural quality of life.
It's been a few weeks since we've been together, and I am so, really excited to have you listen to this conversation. It's a bit of a departure than our usual episodes. It is an extra episode, and a very special one at that. But before I go into who we've got on the show and what we're talking about, I want to share something personal with you.
First of all, it's sweater weather, or as they say, sweater weather here in Illinois, and it's also that time of the year when it is imperative for all of us to make sure that we make it to the polls or vote by mail in our midterm elections. Now, I had an opportunity to do that last Friday. I'm recording this on Monday, the 5th of October, and last Friday morning, my husband had been traveling all week long.
It was a really busy week, and I thought, "Well, rather than just, you know, dive into our daily Friday morning routine and get about our busy day working," we decided to get up and go to our favorite weekend breakfast spot that we are able to go to every now and again. But we said, "Let's flip this around and go on a Friday."
And then we were going to drive over to our county courthouse to make sure that we took advantage of early voting as we always do, and I hope that you are one of those people who will do that as well or have already done that. But as we sat in this restaurant and, you know, kind of looking around and spanning the room, first of all, I was just really surprised at how busy it was.
Again, it's not my usual Friday morning routine. But what really struck me as I looked around the room was how many young families were there, like newborn babies and couples with young children. And there's a little girl in a highchair, just across from me, and she caught my eye because she had big, beautiful brown eyes, and because I'm a grandmother, I take license to play peekaboo with any child who meets, you know, connects with me.
And as we played peekaboo and I was looking around at all the other children, I just kept thinking, "What a joyful place. What a peaceful place." Everyone there for their own reasons, but at the end of the day to enjoy a meal together, wherever they were coming or going. And I was really taken back by just how polite everybody was, and it really just reminded me of things that matter and what we see on social media and what we're hearing in the media, and especially during an election cycle, which in the United States is never-ending.
It can be incredibly discouraging because of how unkind and uncivilized things can feel. So fast forward to today's episode because I promise you there is a connection here. And even though we're not talking about policy per se, what we are talking about today is a topic that I think that America is starving for, and I'll use that analogy, and that is thriving, and with that comes peace.
And so today we are having a conversation about a poll- a survey, excuse me- that just came out, findings from a survey that is called Thriving Together in America: Trends, Discoveries, Community Action and Advice for Leaders. Now, this is a collaboration between the Rippel Foundation and NYU Grossman School of Medicine, Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center, and Gallup.
And for this conversation, I'm gonna tell you who we're gonna have on in a moment, but we really did have an opportunity to dive into the report, which was just released today, so I couldn't tell you about it until today. But what it really is showing us is that how Americans' assessments of their lives have changed significantly over the past two decades, after improving in two years following the Great Recession, well, being plunged at the onset of COVID-19, you probably already know that, only to reach an all-time high again in June of 2021 amid widespread vaccination and economic reopening.
Well, since then, a very short time, national wellbeing has once again declined, nearing the lows recorded during the Great Recession and in the early months of the pandemic. Of course, what this report, as I read, longstanding patterns across age, race, and other demographic groups have also changed, revealing shifts in who experiences wellbeing, and there's also a wide variation in wellbeing across communities, raising important questions about why some people and places are thriving while others are struggling or suffering.
And again, that is the conversation we're going to have today, and joining me for that conversation is someone whose work I admire. I have great respect for their work, and that is Becky Payne, and Becky is the CEO of the Rippel Foundation. And in this conversation, you are gonna hear some really practical information about what leaders should be looking at, including that wellbeing can be scientifically measured consistently and meaningfully over time, and that changes in wellbeing often reveal important developments before they appear in traditional economic or institutional indicators.
And finally, we dive deep into thriving and how it's influenced by a combination of personal and social, economic and community conditions, highlighting the need for coordinated responses rather than isolated interventions. Thriving, my view, is in short supply. And so what I am really pleased to have you do right now is just sit back and put yourself in that podcast frame, listening of mind, and think about this conversation, ways that you can maybe make an impact in your own community when you hear my conversation with Becky Payne.
Okay, are you ready? I sure am. So, let's go.
Michelle Rathman: As I promised, I am so thrilled, and I mean that. You know, I'm not just saying it because I, you know, don't have to. I'm thrilled to have Becky Payne, President and CEO of The Rippel Foundation. Welcome back to The Rural Impact, Becky. The first time we talked, it was brief, but now I'm elated that we have some more time together.
Thank you for joining us.
Becky Payne: Oh, Michelle, it's always a gift and a treat to be with you. Thank you for inviting me back and for all the work that you do through this platform
Michelle Rathman: Thank you so much. You know, I've been really looking forward to this conversation for many reasons. And as I was sharing for, with you before we started recording, is that in my work in health, in rural healthcare in particular, things are thorny, I think is a way to put it. And, and it can really, you know, like drag you down and, you know, we think about all these issues.
I'm a big P policy thinker all the time, connecting these dots. And you are a dot connector, too. I like yours better. So we are gonna have a good conversation today about the work that you are so passionate about, Becky. And before we dive into that, today's feature topic is Thriving Together in America. And I first want to start by having you explain to our listeners about the work of the Rippel Foundation, starting first with the focus. And something I love is that you are all about disrupting the status quo. So let's start there. What does that mean in the context of thriving?
Becky Payne: Well, thank you for the question. And I'll just say, you know, I grew up in a rural community, and I recently returned, took my mom back to visit some old friends, and was just reminded at how important this setting is- this geography, these places that we all come from, that we love, and we learn early on how we come together in rural places.
We care for each other. The solutions don't come from outside of us; they come from within, and that aligns so much with the work of The Rippel Foundation. We are an organization that is 100% committed to helping people across the country and community realize how we craft a future where we can all thrive together.
And we don't leave that open to interpretation. We have studied what that means. We've studied who does that work effectively, how they do it, and we put all of that learning into frameworks and tools and opportunities to tell stories about the people who are implementing that work. So we look at community conditions, what conditions surround our daily lives that set us up to have opportunity to thrive.
And it's really important that we don't just stop at thrive. We really talk about a future where we thrive together with no exceptions. And when we talk about disrupting the status quo, you know, we'll get into a report that we've recently worked on with Gallup. The status quo right now is not good. We know that.
The status quo is reflective of a lot of polarization, division, fear, you know, ambiguity about the future, despair about the future, uncertainty about how to contribute, feeling isolated and like there's no hope. And yet, what we get to see at The Rippel Foundation, working with partners across the country, is that there are pockets of real community action coming together, bringing hope back to community, but hope that is anchored in the work of joining together to improve those very conditions.
And when that happens, it unlocks a lot of wellbeing, of what we would call thriving. It can reduce struggling and suffering. So, The Rippel Foundation is committed to lifting up those stories in a way that you can not just take inspiration but really find tangible opportunities for action and what you can do locally.
Michelle Rathman: That's what I really appreciate because, you know, Iā€™ve worked with people in totally well-intentioned and great programs. There's something that we've covered for years called 100% Community. There's all sorts of things out there, and I think one of the things I know one of the things that I find so valuable about your work is that you put structure to it. And, you know, thrive can be such an abstract term. Surviving we know about, and that doesn't have structure because it just feel like you're running around with a fire hose and safety nets and all that. But you put structure to thriving together, and so this conversation, as it happens, is dropping just after the release of the Thriving Together in America report, which provides a really compelling data about critical trends in nationwide wellbeing, hope, as you said before, and we're gonna talk in a moment about hope being at an all-time low. And you also talk about the ways multi-sector change makers are organizing around wellbeing to purpose better policies. That's the reason why we are here on this podcast, because I do believe all roads to quality of life, at some point, there's an intersection; it's connected to policy, plus programs and resources, resource priorities, and it could not come at a better time.
So let's dive in, talk about this report, who is involved, and from there let's explore what's in it.
Becky Payne: Well, thank you. So this report that you just referenced the title came out just a few days ago and it was a collaborative effort between the Rippel Foundation, researchers from NYU Langone Children's Hospital of Cincinnati, and Gallup. Importantly, Gallup has been collecting and reporting on life experience, people's sense of well-being for more than a couple of decades now.
They've done it nationally. They've also reported this data globally over time, and what we're sadly validating. I'm not gonna say this is the newsworthy point. This is what the headlines will report, but to me, this is not the news.
It's confirming what we know. People's wellbeing is at an all-time low.
That cuts across all categories, whether you break it down by race, ethnicity, age, you know, pick your slice of the data. The sad truth is we're all in a race downward. We've seen compelling drops, 10, 20-point drops in just a matter of 10 years. The starkest drop, the saddest drop, the one that we all need to see as a huge call to action, is that young adults, those 18 to 29, have gone from consistently being the highest, highest-rated thriving category, meaning they would consistently, when you break down the age groups, they would show up as the highest percentage of Americans who were thriving.
In the last 10 years, they have gone from best to worst.
It's astonishing; it's not surprising. Again, I want people to really resist dwelling on the data points. The data confirm what we know and what we've experienced, and where youth are concerned, where young adults are concerned, Gen Z in particular, it confirms what they have been telling us.
So the call to action is first, listen. Listen and pay attention to what they are telling us, not just about what their experience is that is bad, but they are rich with hope and aspirations and ideas and solutions about what would make life better for them. If you really listen, they talk about their economic strain, their inability to find housing that is capable of transferring wealth to them the way, the way all of the previous generations have, right?
The job market is hard for them. The schools, this is, this is the COVID generation. This is the group, the bubble that moved from having the highest suicide and poor mental health statistics when they were young adults and being captured as youth to now being the youngest adults being captured in this survey.
So again, there's no surprise here. Let's resist that being the news. The news is when you join with community members to have them tell you how they make sense of what the data is saying, and then ask them, "What are your ideas about how we craft a different future?" Giving them a framework like what we use, which is the vital conditions, then you unlock something special. Then we have the opportunity to shape something different.
Michelle Rathman: You know, very interesting that we're having this conversation today. This comes just when we're recording today on the 30th of September, but I read something yesterday. You might be familiar with Seth Kaplan's work and his work around fragile neighborhoods, and he put out something really interesting yesterday on LinkedIn about using the settlement money that you've received from Meta and put that towards youth programs. And I thought that great... That's a great concept, but what you share is that sharing what you're doing to connect with young people and how you're working with them to reverse this trend, and I think about where that work has the most impact and where it needs to happen, which is in your zip code,
Becky Payne: Yeah.
Michelle Rathman: In your neighborhoods
Becky Payne: Yeah. Seth's work is phenomenal, and we're very aligned in terms of the importance of place, the importance of investing in community. And I think Seth would also argue in engaging community and solution finding.
Where I would take issue is the language of programs. So we've had generations of programs.
Programs tend to get very narrow very quickly. Programs tend to get designed around a narrow set of evaluation indicators that are near-term, that are not deep about the true systems that they are impacting. Programs are very good at alleviating near-term struggling or suffering or even short-term improvements in somebody's experience of fill in the blank indicator that that thing was meant, that program was meant to impact.
Programs are not the same as transforming systems, and that is what is going to be required.
So that's where, you know, the vital conditions- there are seven of them- that framework.
Michelle Rathman: I wanted to walk through those. Could you?
Becky Payne: Yeah, we've talked about this the last time I was on. There are seven. We tend to depict them in a circle by design.
It's really a way to think about all of the things that show up in your daily life that systems are responsible for creating or for not creating or for creating in inequitable ways.
So those seven conditions, things like humane housing, reliable transportation, meaningful work, and wealth. Yes, basic needs for health and safety.
You know, we, we focus on health and wellbeing. Of course, that shows up, and that includes mental health as well as physical health. Lifelong learning. So not relegated to K12 or college or formal education, but lifelong learning. So you hear the language of these conditions. They're also defined, so we show them as a wheel, but I also like to point people to the definitions of the standard for when we know we have met these vital conditions.
Those standards are important because you can measure them. Things like humane housing include adequate space per square foot per person, proximity to services and school, right? Freedom from segregation and gentrification. So that then pivots to the one that is my favorite and happens to be the most impactful and investable vital condition, which is belonging and civic muscle.
So, they're a circle with belonging and civic muscle at the heart, in the center by design, because you can't effectively impact well-being by picking off one of the vital conditions and just focusing on that.
Michelle Rathman: You're right
Becky Payne: Now, importantly, that doesn't mean that any one organization or person is responsible for all of them equally.
What it does mean is that our local leaders, our local champions, our local community elders have an opportunity to not focus on their singular program or their favorite initiative, but to join together and say, "We all bring strengths. We all have deep understanding, expertise, and passion about our given topic or issue, and yet our capacity to be successful in our individual goals is truly limited until we join together and understand how all of those pieces fit together and how we impact each other, for better or for worse, with the programs that we try to implement.
If we're just implementing these singular programs, we miss the mark on the potential of what the collective impact can be. So that's why these frameworks that we put together are very disciplined about holding all of the complexity of a community and the conditions that impact your daily life.
I'd like to share one more thing.
I, you know, I often-- I get to go around the country and meet all of the people who are doing such amazing work because they invite me to speak. So when I talk to people, I often ask the question of: Tell me about your good day. Like, what makes a good day for you? And it can be a room of two, three, four, five hundred people, mixed groups, all sectors.
Invariably, they offer up things like, "I got good sleep. I was able to connect with family or friends. I felt like I contributed at work. I was able to go for a walk and enjoy nature." What you don't hear in that is that, "My appointment at my doctor was smooth and on time," that I, you know, "I went in to get my driver's license and the people were nice to me."
So those systems that we spend a lot of time talking about how broken and uneven they are, which is important, that's not how people experience their daily lives. Sometimes when we design programs, we overcomplicate the things that can actually alleviate struggling and suffering.
And it's important to remember that while those systems have to work for people, and certainly when they don't, and we're experiencing that at scales none of us ever imagined possible, it creates tremendous suffering.
But that alone is not enough to produce wellbeing.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah.
Becky Payne: In your daily life, you go through all of those conditions in- and so programs tend to be so narrowly focused that they miss the mark of what is truly being asked for from our residents, from our neighbors, from our family, from ourselves. You want things to work.
You want things to work and be fair for everybody around you and give me an experience in my community that is pleasant, that lets me connect with other people, that tells me that my leaders hear me and are concerned about my wellbeing.
Michelle Rathman: I love that you said that. My brain is working overtime because I just think about the outlets, we have to share what makes it a bad day. You know, we've got so much opportunity to sit at a keyboard and just spew all the things that went wrong. You know, the kids were on my lawn and, you know, the restaurant served me there.
I see it on the, there's a platform called, I don't know, it's about neighborhoods or what have you. And I just can't because it's just draining to me. People aren't saying, "It was a wonderful experience at the grocery store," to your point. One of the things that I've got pulled up here is the information about community organizing around wellbeing, and I think it's safe to say that in some places that's easier to do, and one might think that that's easier to do in rural areas, but I'm here to tell you, and I know you know this, that's not true. And the work that we do, we go, and we work with hospitals, and when they're doing their community health needs assessments, I say to them, and I wanted to bounce this off of you while we're here, because they do a community health needs assessment and it shows all the things that are the needs that are not being met, and the vast majority of them have nothing to do with the physical delivery of clinical services.
It's transportation, it's maybe contaminated well water, itā€™s, you know, economic, you know, downward spiral, Main Street closing, so forth, and yet the hospital is kind of expected to like fix those problems. And I love the concept about building civic muscle because in my mind, community organizing around wellbeing, we have to think bigger than that.
And you talk about growing interest in community and wellbeing; you know, building capacity to measure and improve capacity is one of those tricky words right now. We're, we're using it, but you have examples. And then goal setting and benchmarking, but this has to happen, as you say, in this multi-sector collaborative environment.
So one of the things that you guys have is these toolkits. You, you call it Rethink Health Toolbox, but it's not probably what most people would think when you say Rethink Health Toolbox. Can you walk us through a little bit about what those components are to give people a sense of what that means in the context of how they actually promote community organizing around wellbeing?
Becky Payne: Yeah. Yeah. So one of the things you'll find in this report is a very clear depiction of what we have come to understand are the four drivers of well-being.
So, first is start by measuring, and hospitals- public benefit hospitals are a great place to start. To measure well-being, the measurement that is the crux of this entire report is just two questions.
It's two questions that can be added to existing mechanisms that are collecting data. So once you measure it, then what is it telling you? Having that catalytic conversation in your community to understand that. But then what do you do about it? Well, we know there are four drivers of well-being, and you can organize around them.
What does that mean? Organizing around them means that people understand that you heard them, that you are taking action on the things that they lifted up, and that you're making good on the expectations that you're creating. And those four drivers are things you've heard me talk about.
The first and most important, belonging and civic muscle.
There are real things you can do to invest in giving community members a sense that they belong, that they are a part of your community. And when you pair it with civic muscle, that means that they have an outlet for their talents. They have an outlet for their input that is being taken seriously and acted upon.
So belonging and civic muscle is the first, perhaps most important driver. The second is to invest in these seven vital conditions, making sure that we are investing in them as intended, as defined.
The third is taking a look at those systems. This is where your favorite, the big P policy work comes in. Systems right now are not designed to give everyone an equal shot, so designing systems that are fair is one of the four drivers. And then the last, and this is always one that people struggle with a little bit, is to reduce over-reliance on urgent services, and this is an important piece.
So, when you ask me about our toolbox, right? We have what, what we refer to as a well-being portfolio. We've put this together truly after watching and learning alongside countless communities who've used this approach. We all, most of us, if we're lucky enough to have some kind of retirement savings. I know everybody doesn't have that, but many of us do.
Certainly your listeners understand the idea of an investment portfolio, right? We all understand; we're brought up to understand first you need to invest in it. Second, you need to balance it, and you need to look that your investments reflect your values, your priorities. What are you trying to realize in a future state? A growth of some kind of asset.
Well, in this case, the asset is community wellbeing or thriving together. So, when you look at the portfolio, what we do is we take those seven vital conditions, and we pair it with urgent services. Urgent services are those things that you need in a time of crisis when people are struggling and suffering.
So an emergency housing voucher. Well, I already described to you humane housing. You understand that they're different.
We tend to over-invest almost singularly at times in urgent services. Environmental cleanup, right? Emergency mental health and substance use crisis services. These are not things that I'm suggesting are not important.
But if you step back and look at the portfolio of investments in a place and you look across organizations, government, non-government, everything together, you tend to see an over-investment in those urgent services. So that last driver is make sure they're adequate. Of course, that's humane.
That's our moral responsibility. And how are you also investing in the conditions that we actually know get, get people to go beyond just barely surviving?
Those are those seven vital conditions. We have to be able to do both. To your point, hospitals are not responsible for all of it. However, they collect important data.
We have a number of hospital systems across the country that are increasingly using the Vital Conditions framework to organize their community health needs assessment. That's an opportunity to not only collect data that they have to, IRS requires that they collect these needs assessments. They have tremendous choice in how they do that, what kind of data they're collecting, and then what do you do about it?
Sit in dialogue with community, ask their opinions and their experience about it, and then how do you offer that up to the constellation of stakeholders and actors in that community? To not say that it is only the hospital's responsibility to solve for everything that is discovered, but you do have leadership and moral authority in your community.
So hospitals have an opportunity to kind of set the conversation and invite the right people in to say, "Collectively, this is what we're dealing with. How can we go forward together? Who has strengths to address which of these things that we've identified in this data?" So that it is truly a community needs assessment.
It's not characterized as a hospital needs assessment. It is a community health needs assessment. The solutions are found in the broader community. Now, sometimes you have multiple hospitals. That's gonna force you to go beyond yourself, overcome the instincts around competition. The reality is that population, that community is not just your patient population; it is your workforce.
It is your neighbor. It is the person you're buying groceries next to. It is the person you're sitting in church next to. It is the person you're going to help in a time of need, or they're helping you in your time of need. So humanize the data and humanize the people who can contribute to the solutions.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. And you know, you are so spot on, of course, in that, you know, the community health needs assessment is a requirement, and yet what I'm seeing is that it's kind of the same old, same old. Collect the data, you know, put it on the website and in a drawer, and you've done your job. However, if we are being honest, and that's what we always need to be on this show, is that the conditions that are now knocking down the front doors of community health centers and, and hospitals who- which are the hubs for the delivery of care and so forth, it is time to have a new conversation, and I love the disruption part of it.
Not in a bad way, but if we're, if we expect to meet the demands, talking about urgent services, adequacy, that, those needs are going to increase because of all these conditions here with folks losing their healthcare coverage, losing their nutrition assistance, losing those housing vouchers. So I think it sets us up to have a perfectly robust, courageous conversation about community wellbeing.
And I'm- I wonder before we go on, 'cause I do wanna talk about a couple other things for sure, you know, how have you found the organizations and the communities you're working with, how do you find strategies? What are the strategies to help break through that initial conversation and engage people?
'Cause I, I, that's what I often hear. That's the first step. Like, we have a meeting. There's no structure to it. People say, "Yeah, that's a good idea," but who's gonna do it? And then it fi- fizzles out. So how do you... H- how does, do leaders listening to this episode, how do they take it beyond the thought and then being discouraged that I'm gonna c- or I'm gonna convene, but everyone's gonna expect, 'cause I'm the convener, everyone's gonna expect us to do the work, and they're just gonna come along for the ride?
Becky Payne: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate the sentiment, and it's common. And I think there's- we all make stories up in our heads, right? And then we navigate through the world as characters in those stories.
Michelle Rathman: Indeed.
Becky Payne: So I would push back on the idea that there's an expectation that the convener is doing all the work. I think that that can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, and that depends on the posture of the convener.
So the first step that we would recommend, again, do you know who is thriving, struggling, and suffering? Do you n- do you have the data that tells you what you need to know to be curious? And the invitation is not necessarily to your table. The invitation is in partnership with others, a collective convening.
The Vital Conditions framework, you know, if-- I know it can be confusing because we are the Rippel Foundation, but we are not a grant maker. So we have countless communities. We have maps on our website. You can see how many communities are using this framework. That's important to understand they are not doing this because it is a grant requirement.
Use the framework. They are, they are using it because it solves a problem. And the first problem is it creates shared vocabulary. It is not my organizations, my hospitals, my housing effort, my transportation. It is no one sector vocabulary. It is our collective vocabulary and shared understanding of what needs to be present in a community. So that's one.
Pick a framework. Doesn't have to be that, but it's a really effective framework. Pick a framework that does not feel owned or proprietary by any one entity.
Don't go it alone. Join with others and join with community members. Let it be a collective invitation. Yeah, that means you have to build relationships and conversation before you have the convening. That's the work.
We know that optimism is at an all-time low, but there is an all-time high of people wanting to have an outlet for their-- that people want to join, but they don't see outlets for it. So one of the really important features of the science of this is how important hope is. Hope is at an all-time low, as I said.
However, when you have local leaders or local efforts where people see that they have the opportunity to give back, to contribute, to talk about the things that really matter to them- so again, these vital conditions- then we know that they are more likely to invest in their health, to invest in participating in community life, and that means participating in economic life. When we look at what happens locally with hope, we know everybody's having a shared experience, regardless of which side of the aisle you align with.
We're all having a shared experience of division and polarization and isolation and anger and frustration and all the things. That's our shared national experience, and it's, it's fed to us by all kinds of sources. However, the wonderful thing about hope is when people see local initiatives and local leaders who are taking action that is aligned with what they envision for a better future, their hope goes up.
When their hope goes up, their reported experience of wellbeing improves. That local experience is strong enough to override what they see happening at the national level. That's really important, and that to me is the most important message, not only of this report, but it validates what we've been saying now for a long time, which is we have more power and agency at the local level than we think, and it just takes getting started.
So again, collect the data. Don't go it alone. Engage with others. Have the conversation and be open to creative solutions that are not limited to sort of siloed programs that, but that take advantage of everybody's collective contributions to improving those community conditions, and then stay with it.
The, the courage part has to come from not letting this fall into the trap of a budget cycle or an election cycle.
The good thing about measuring wellbeing, it is that it is extremely sensitive to things that happen in real time. So
Michelle Rathman: time,
Becky Payne: Yeah, so, so signs of hope, signs of progress, signs of the right conversation happening and people committing real effort and, and intention and resources to change, that can improve people's sense of wellbeing even before the changes can take hold.
But what you measure matters, so you've got to stay the course. If we wanna see real improvements, and we're calling on people to join us in setting a 20-point increase in thriving because these numbers have tanked so low.
We can't afford not to go after that.
But if you wanna see that amount of progress, you have to be willing to stay with the investments over time, and that's where the courage comes in.
You can instill hope immediately. People listening could go tomorrow, look at the framework, think about how it makes sense. Reach out to us if you want help. We will sit and walk alongside anybody who is trying to do this work. But the courage comes in, in staying the course, and that's-- That courage only gets buoyed when you're doing it in community with others.
If you think you're going it alone and you're gonna be the hero of the story, you're set up for failure.
Michelle Rathman: That's right
Becky Payne: And then again, I'm gonna bring us back to our young adults and young people. They have so much creative energy, ambition, and fortitude. They know what's not working for them, and they have great ideas about how to improve it.
What we don't do is give that enough credibility and engage them in implementing the solutions that they see are important. It doesn't mean wash our hands of it; our generation is messed up, now it's your turn. That means joining together, learning together, walking alongside, supporting them, not letting them flop in their youth, but helping them have opportunity for meaningful contributions to the conversation and meaningful contributions to the implementation of the solutions.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. It makes me, and, and I, I love that you say that. I mean, I share with people, I have seven grandchildren. My oldest grandson is 15, and we have some of the most insightful conversations. I mean, to your point, listen, don't be dismissive because, you know, the numbers are clear. In 2010, 64% of young adults 18 to 29 were thriving, but, as you said, st- kicking us off today, an 18-point decline, now at 46%.
We're doing it wrong. And I, and I, and I love what you say about the fact that hope does have con- it does have, it, you know, consequences. I mean, consequential, tangible things that you can see. All right. My gosh, I could talk to you forever, but I know you have things to do today as well. I wanna just ask you some, a couple closing questions here.
First, at The Rippel Foundation, you say that impact is not something we claim. I love this. It's something we practice together over time. So, for our listeners who find themselves frustrated, stalled, impatient, feeling as if the lift has become too heavy and hard, what advice, g- you have a lot of sage advice- can you give us about how to measure impact that may not be at a grand scale, but the value of taking small steps over time?
Becky Payne: Yeah. I mean, all I have to do is point to our community stewards, the bright spots that are investing in belonging and civic muscle. They're investing in all of the vital conditions, but those who are investing in belonging and civic muscle- you enter the room, Michelle, and you feel the difference in those spaces.
You will hear stories of community members saying, "You know, I didn't think anybody cared about me, people like me, but I come into these spaces, and I know that I have an army of community around me. When I'm falling, I've had people outside of these meetings reach out to me and ask if I'm okay and offer to help."
So w- we, we wanna focus on the big grand community scale, but when you invest in belonging and civic muscle, you are infusing opportunities for interpersonal relationships. And we, we've all heard the headlines and the data on social connection, social isolation. So those investments in belonging and civic muscle are a tangible way to see-- I like to talk about laying the breadcrumbs to the big goal.
It absolutely infuses day-to-day, week-to-week opportunities for improved experience in people's daily lives.
You have to be able to hold multiple truths in this work. One is that our current reality is bad. That's not news. Two is we can do something about it.
And taking the first step. That leads to the next step.
It helps you find other people, which even those of us doing the work, it can be lonely and hard, but when you find other people and join with them, that has an inter- it's an intervention on your own loneliness and your own social isolation. And suddenly you can carry that load a little bit longer and go a little bit farther.
And on the day when you're tired, somebody else is picking it up for you, and then you come along, and you carry it the next day. So, I think the biggest piece about incremental impacts versus long-term impacts, you have to hold both, but you're looking for different signs and signals along the way.
And, and those interpersonal experiences of social connection and belonging and opportunity for civic engagement or participation in community life are incredibly tangible, real-term, powerful stories about this work.
Michelle Rathman: Hmm. I wonder if you, if, I, gosh, I have another question for you because I'm just thinking, you know, we hear the word civic muscle, and in my mind it al- often goes to, I've, I've interviewed a lot of county leaders, rural county leaders on this podcast, city managers and so forth, and the ones I have had the privilege of talking to, I mean, they are down with this.
I mean, they are... And what I m- what I mean by that is they're not down on it; they're down with it. They really wanna improve the conditions for their community. Do you have, some, you know, maybe a little tidbit to share about how you, if you are not, if you're not a s- if you're not a civil servant, but instead of g- going to a j- a town hall meeting and, and being enraged about a particular issue, w- wha- how's that conversation start with our local leaders that actually do influence the vital conditions in, in many regards?
Becky Payne: Well, I will say when I connect with mayors in particular, and I would put governors in the same boat, but let's keep it local. So, when a mayor is first introduced to the vital conditions, they look at it, there's a pause, and then they say something like, "This is my job description." And I'm like, "Yes, it is.
You are responsible for ensuring all of these conditions in one way or another for the people in your charge."
And mayors can't do it alone. Government can't do it alone. You know my story. I come from 20 years of-- 25 years of public service at the federal and state level. I was raised by county-level civil servants, both of my parents, their entire careers.
Michelle Rathman: Wow
Becky Payne: What my parents taught me, 'cause it's a little easier at the local level, is there's nothing they did without community members, both informing them, sharing their wisdom, and then taking action alongside them. So I think the important piece for local leaders and for all of us is to remember government has a very important role.
Government is not the only actor in this situation. We talked about hospitals. We can talk about local business leaders. We can talk about any number of nonprofits and non-governmental organizations, philanthropies. We have community foundations using this framework to organize the work of their community foundations, schools.
It takes the whole constellation. Civic muscle is... It, it's important to sort of spend a moment on this.
It is not to be confused with voting. Voting can be an expression of it. It is a very important expression. I hope everybody votes in whatever way speaks to your heart and your aspirations. It is not the full expression of civic muscle.
Civic muscle does not only mean going to a government-sponsored meeting. Government entities are not the only people who can create opportunities for civic muscle. Community organizations, parks, churches- we all have an opportunity and a responsibility to create outlets for people to come join in contributing to their community.
That can look like a cleanup. That can look like walking around and participating in surveys. Sure, it can look like canvassing for an election, but more importantly, civic muscle is a daily act.
Michelle Rathman: Voting is a few times over cycles, but it's what we can do every single day we have the privilege of standing.
Becky Payne: Yes. Now, voting and demanding that we have elected officials who understand these conditions and who understand that their accountability is to us as residents and that they are responsible for improving these conditions, we need elected officials across every stripe who understand that. And we need an activated public who demands that the accountability is not to party.
The accountability is to improving the conditions and giving us all a fair and equal shot at attaining our best wellbeing.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. I love what you said earlier. Instead of saying my community, it's our community, and I think if we expand our vocabulary, I say change the word, change the meaning, and it happens fast.
All right. You have a really amazing event coming up, as it happens very, very soon. It's on October 19th. So, talk to us about that webinar, and if you could please, we'll make sure that we put this always on the show notes on the ruralimpact.com website.
But talk to us about that event and who should, and, you know, I don't like to say should on people, but who would benefit, who would benefit from attending?
Becky Payne: Right. Well, thank you. So we have our Rethink Health Toolbox webinar series. This is the next one. We'll be going deeper into this Gallup report on Thriving Together in America. We're thrilled to have our lead author, co-sponsor from Gallup, joining us, as well as some community members. So part of what is so rich about this report is, yes, the science is updated, all of the data is there.
You can nerd out there if that's where you like. But I hope you read to the end because that's where, to me, the real inspiration happens. When people wanna know what to do, look no further than examples from communities who are doing this work. And there is about 15 short community spotlights of places where they are measuring wellbeing and then taking action in catalytic measurement, as we've called it.
So, a couple of those folks will be on that webinar, as well as some of our Rippel staff. These webinars are an opportunity for us to go deeper on the things that we have discovered can improve thriving together.
This one will focus on measurement and focus on the science and how you take hope, not just focus on the, the headlines.
Again, confirming what we already knew, but what do we do about it? That, that will be on the 19th. What I'll also say is we record and re- and re-share all of our toolbox webinar series. We also have quarterly what we call Vital Conditions Conversations. So that's for anybody just getting to know, learn about the Vital Conditions or people who've been practicing using them.
It's an open hour. Depending on who's in the room, we go into breakout rooms and let community members and peers hear and learn from each other. We're in the room to try to help facilitate as needed, but it's a real opportunity to meet people from across the country who are using this work. Everything we learn, we try to turn into tools and resources.
It is all freely available on our website, including, most importantly, stories of others. It's not about us. It is about who else is doing this work. Where have they struggled? Where have they innovated, and what can you learn and take inspiration to take your first steps?
Michelle Rathman: You sip from their hope pool, take in a dose, daily doses of hope. And you know, there's that saying, "Hope is not a strategy," but you blow that out of the water because it is an imperative part of the strategy moving forward.
Oh my gosh, Becky Payne, I wish we could have coffee together or a beverage every single morning, maybe do a walk together, but we are so appreciative of your time for your work.
Again, we're gonna make sure that we put all these links on our websites that you guys can navigate directly, and of course, I really encourage folks to follow you guys, on social, on LinkedIn, on, and, and other places. So again, a privilege to be with you. Thank you for your time and all that you do to help us think about thriving in a, in a very different way and, and in a good way by that
Becky Payne: Oh, Michelle, it's always a treat, and I, I just so appreciate you offering up the time and the space, and your leadership and your voice is so important. You've given so much, and I will join you on a walk anytime and appreciate being able to have this conversation with you.
Michelle Rathman: Wonderful. All right. You know, it's never over until I say it is, so stay with us because I've got some closing thoughts and a few updates for you as well about what we've got coming up after this episode too. So we'll be right back. Stay with us.
My sincere thanks to Becky Payne from the Rippel Foundation. I really hope that what you heard today inspires you to go read the report that we talked about. And of course, all you're going to need to do is go to theruralimpact.com, click over to our resource page, and you will find the link to the Rippel Foundation Gallup report, Thriving Together in America: Trends, Discoveries, Community Action, and Advice for Leaders.
And we're gonna make sure we put some other links in there as well, including to that special event that they've got happening here in just a week or so. So we've gotta make sure that we get you connected with that. And listen, we really do want you to join the conversation and let us know what you've learned and maybe some ways that you're taking some action in your own community to advance the condition of thriving.
Again, it's not about just merely surviving, certainly not about suffering, and maybe there is something that you can do to make an impact. I'm sure there is. Okay. Just a quick reminder- a few reminders. When you're on our website, make sure that you subscribe, hit that subscribe button, because that's where you're going to be able to access, get right in your inbox, our email blasts with updates about the show, what we've got coming up next, resources, and all sorts of good stuff where that is concerned.
And that is where we also invite you to visit our merch store. Love to see the purchases come through. We are so grateful when you make one. Get yourself a baseball hat, a water bottle, a re- reusable shopping bag. Know that every single time that you make a purchase, you are helping us to continue producing what we call these dot-connecting conversations.
Okay, real quick before we close out, I just wanna tell you a few things that are coming up, because we've got some really, again, not light subjects, episodes coming your way, and one is gonna be focused on the impact of massive cuts to the federal workforce, which is affecting, of course, disaster readiness.
This is something that rural communities across this country understand all too well. And of course, it's a question that we really believe is an urgent one after another powerful nor'easter bore down on the East Coast not just a few weekends ago, and then of course, as NOAA is warning us of potentially historic El NiƱo season ahead.
And then you're going to hear a conversation that I had with Sarah Jane Tribble and Liz Hamel, and they discuss the KFF/Associated Press survey of rural voters that looks at their views and experiences around the economy and healthcare as we near the end of this extremely consequential midterm election.
So, because I said that again, make sure that you have made, that you've made your way to some place to vote early. Make sure you send in your mail-in ballots, because every single election of every size indeed does matter. All right, with that said, I just wanna remind you again that you can follow us on social.
We love when you do. I'm spending a lot more time on LinkedIn, and you can find me on Blue Sky and Facebook a- as well. And a really quick thank you to Brea Corsaro and Sarah Garvin for all their incredible hard work behind the scenes. We're so grateful for everything you do. And until next time, here is my invitation.
Please take the best possible care of yourself because when you do, you are the best equipped to take care of all those around you, of course, to the best of your ability. We will see you again soon on a brand-new episode of "The Rural Impact."
