80. Rural Counties Responding to Policy Shifts: The Impact of Civic Engagement Interview with Hope Harmon, Paul William Heimel, and Chuck Marohn Jr.
Hello, one and all, and welcome back to a brand-new episode of The Rural Impact. I'm Michelle Rathman, and we thank you for joining us for another conversation that does work hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything, or as we say so often, rural quality of life.
Well, today we are doing a little bit of a shift of our own here because we are really focusing on a bigger, broader subject, which is the impact of federal policy changes and shifts on our rural counties.
So, speaking of rural counties, they're 63%, you may know the statistic, but 63% of America's 3,144 counties are predominantly rural. And for this and many other reasons, one would think that the policy should be designed to advance rural interests that benefit all of America. But you know how I feel about “shoulding” on you?
So, between tariffs, specifically trade wars initiated by President Trump, which have devastated export markets for American products like soybeans, corn, wheat, cotton, pork, dairy, and beef. And on top of that, immigration enforcement laws that prompted raids on farms and processing plants, causing severe labor shortages in the agricultural labor sector. A little bit of context there for you.
Of approximately 2.4 million farm workers nationwide, about 1.2 million are undocumented. This is something that we've been talking about quite a bit on this podcast over the past year or so, both of which have caused significant economic and agricultural harm.
Of course, we've always, we've also talked about many times the massive cuts to healthcare that, even with a $50 billion rural health transformation fund, doesn't have a whole lot of rural health leaders breathing a sigh of relief, because it is putting them at much more strain. And really, a lot of them are in a dire state of uncertainty.
Of course, we know that rural counties have also been hit hard by freezes and cuts coming out of the USDA, cuts to infrastructure funding for things like broadband and housing programs. The list goes on. It's not great news. It is Good Friday 'cause we are recording on Good Friday. But there are some things that we can do about it.
And so that's why we turn our conversation, as I say, to focus on not just the impacts of federal policies on America's rural counties, but of course some of the solutions and some of the ways that county leaders across this country are responding. Of course, it looks different from location to location, but what we're hearing across the board is that these challenges and the struggles are shared across the board.
And so, we wanted to make sure that we had a well-rounded conversation with two county commissioners from different parts of the country, and they joined us to share their experiences and talk again about how they are about, how they are responding and adapting to policy shifts and funding changes.
And from there, we also wanted to make sure that we brought you a guest who can talk more on the upside of things about how we actually turn this around and how small towns and rural counties can become stronger in the face of any adversity coming their way.
So, we've got a jam-packed show for you. And for that, I just wanna tell you first, you are going to hear from Hope Harmon. And Hope Harmon is the Commissioner in Ben Hill County District Two, which is in the state of Georgia. And we also hear from Paul Heimel, County Commissioner for Potter's County, Potter County, Pennsylvania, excuse me. And each of them helps us connect the many dots as we do here about the ways that they are responding to those changes.
And then from there, you are gonna hear from Chuck Morone. And Chuck is the Founder and President of Strong Towns. So, he has a lot to share with us about how small towns across rural America are doing the important work to make their towns stronger.
So, with that. As I always do, I invite you to sit back and tune out that background noise. Put yourself in that podcast frame listening of mind, and listen to my conversation with Hope, Paul, and Chuck. Are you ready? I woke up this morning. Ready again, waiting for you. So, let's go.
Michelle Rathman: Hey, everyone. As promised, I am so thrilled to tell you that I am joined by Commissioner Hope Harmon from Ben Hill County, Georgia, as well as Commissioner Paul Heimel from Potter County, Pennsylvania. To both of you, welcome to the Rural Impact. We are so glad you are here today.
Hope Harmon: Thank you so much for having us today. I'm excited about the conversation we're gonna have about rural America today.
Michelle Rathman: Thank you.
Paul William Heimel: I agree. I agree with hope. I think it's a topic we could talk about for maybe a few days rather than a few minutes, but let's try to.
Michelle Rathman: Here, here on that to both of you, because this is, you know, for me, this has been a conversation, and I'm really, I wanna give a shout out to the National Association of Counties because we've been really, really wanting to have this conversation since last year. So, as I teed up for our listeners and folks watching us on YouTube, I shared a brief overview of what I'm reading and the different conversations I've been having about some of the most pressing challenges facing many of our rural counties across the US right now. Although we've seen some challenges for decades now, I think for me it feels front burner for sure, and many of them are boiling over.
So, I really wanted to have a conversation that talks about what commissioners, the rooms that you all are in, that we are not. What are you keeping close tabs on? What specifically on the policy front do you think are things that our listeners need to understand? Because so many people are not in tune with their county governments unless there's like a ballot measure to raise taxes, and then people kind of get all up in arms, and I see you both nodding your head, you know.
So, I just gonna kind of run down the list of things I'm seeing, and then we'll, we'll have a conversation.
So increased costs for counties resulting from H.R.1, formerly known as the One Big Beautiful Bill Act. Yet to be linked, you know, into your 2026 budgets. Also decreased intergovernmental support. We've been hearing a lot about that. Reduced local autonomy, immigration policy, really impacting rural communities in ways that urban communities have their own challenges, but in ways urban communities are not experiencing on the ag and tech and healthcare workforce, renewable energy challenges, data centers, and farm loss.
So, before we dive into all that, why don't you first start us off by telling us a little bit about your counties and a snapshot of kind of the a few things that you are seeing kind of rising to the surface. So, Commissioner Harmon, can we start with you and have you give us that good snapshot?
Hope Harmon: Okay, so I live in Ben Hill County, Georgia. We have about 16,000 residents here, and some of our issues that are kinda rising, I mean is the rising cost of healthcare services. That's something we're definitely concerned about. We are still fortunate enough to have a hospital here, and so with the rising cost of healthcare and everything that's going on with that, mental health, we just don't have access to those resources for mental health. Workforce opportunity and also retaining talent.
Like, because you know, a lot of people wanna move to the metro areas. So, it's being able to retain the talent here and get more economic opportunity here. And we're also just seeing issues with making sure that our residents are able to stay in their homes, you know, because property taxes is a huge thing.
So, we are having the rising cost of things like EMS services and running everyday county services, but also, we have to look at the fact that we cannot raise taxes, if we want our citizens to be able to stay in their homes and be remain homeowners. So, it is a challenge, but I'm thankful to be in the position I am in to be able to help with the challenges because I just feel like working together, we are a resilient community, and we are gonna come up with the answers. We're gonna keep plowing along.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. My gosh. Everything you, I'm nodding my head because I'm what you're saying. I'm hearing all over the place. What about, for you, Commissioner Heimel, what are some of the things that tell us about your community and some of the biggest challenges that you see in your immediate future?
Paul William Heimel: I'm gonna put in a shameless plug for Potter County, Pennsylvania. Making a triangle here. And, you got Pittsburgh here in the West, and you got Philadelphia down here on the East. Well, we're at the top of the triangle. We're on the New York state border up in the mountains. What Commissioner Harmon said, I could echo just about every element of that.
Our biggest issue here, the overarching issue that challenges us with all kinds of implications, our population has plummeted from North of 18,000 to south of 16,000 since the beginning of this decade, this century. That's profound.
We also have a median age now of 49.5. Nationally, it's 10 years younger, and at the state level, it's about eight or nine years younger. That combination of outmigration of our youth and the dropping population and increasing pressures that are being put on our local governments, and in the case of this conversation, the county government, and you already touched on OB, the legislation heard around the world, and as it continues and really starts to trickle down to rural counties, we're really concerned.
Michelle Rathman: Hmm. As in my conversation I was mentioning to Hope before this, I just got off an interview talking about rural education funding and the significant challenge with, you know, voucher programs and so forth, but we won't go there.
Let's talk a little bit about, you know, the fact that counties are gonna lose, they are losing forms of federal support, you know, at the beginning of this year. A lot of grant programs just were dead, frozen in their tracks. Some stops and starts confusion, so forth, including grants that stand up and support those imperative local services that you know, now you have to shoulder additional costs, and that means that you, all commissioners in your shoes, as well, will need to weigh options for how to respond.
And you know, to your point the margins are very narrow. The resources, the buckets that you can, you know, go fishing in are very, very small. So, let's talk a little bit about the funding challenges. Just in terms of dollars and what make you know, dollars and cents, and then some of the things that you're exploring to help offset those impacts of those cost shifts, because the costs don't go away.
You just have to find someplace else to get the money.
Hope Harmon: You're, you're absolutely right. The costs don't go away. I always tell people there are certain things we have to do. Like, there's not a choice in the matter. We have to do them. We have to fund the sheriff, we have to fund the courts. You know, there's different departments that we absolutely have to fund, and there's no getting around it. Roads have to be paved.
So, the things that we've been doing is definitely trying to take advantage of, before I got into office, we weren't really taking advantage of a lot of federal grants and state grants, and we've been able to do a lot of that, but those are being cut as well, and so we really just hadn't to tighten down. And what we started, we started about before COVID, really just really looking at the numbers and really looking at the books and saying, "Hey, we need to be good stewards of the taxpayers' dollars. And we need to start buckling down now 'cause we don't know what is to come."
And so, in looking at that, it has been things of, you know, sometimes when somebody retires, we are just not hiring somebody to fill that spot. And that does mean more work on the staff that is currently in that office. And that has meant, you know, we have had to trim down in some areas, in some departments. But, overall, you try the best that you can to provide the same level of service. We've even had to privatize EMS services since I've been in office because we just couldn't afford to do 'em at the county level anymore.
And so, whereas when I came into office, I think we maybe had three or four ambulances. Now we only have two. And so, it's making those kinds of decisions that have been difficult, but they're, they're just necessary while also just trying to be a good steward and not go the other route in raising things for the taxpayers.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. My gosh. I'm sure again, you know, commissioner Heimel, you're saying, "Yeah, us too." What's it look like for you all, and the adjustments that you've had to make considering so many shifts happening? That, that's my, that's the book I'm writing called, 'Making Shifts Happen.' But what are the, some of the shifts that you're happening, that you're see happening and how are you all responding to that?
Paul William Heimel: I will say that I think we need to do a little, introspection sometimes. I think there have been efficiencies that could have been pursued. Commissioner Harmon mentioned the fact that if someone reaches retirement age, maybe don't replace them. I'd even go a step further that there are situations where we might be a little bloated here and there.
You know, we we're stuck in our old ways of doing things. There's the sacred cows out there. We wanna have a feeling of family and take care of our employees and the folks who take care of us as the county leaders. I understand all that, but it's real easy to kind of turn your attention away from opportunities to save money and, and run a tighter ship. It, it's extremely challenging.
The other thing, part of our soul searching is, and every state is different, but what is the, really, the responsibility of the county government? I think about like a core sample of Earth sometimes, and you know, you there is self responsibility. There is your family that should in many cases, help you out. There's your community, your church, your organizations, your local community, people around you.
The federal government is huge, and I would argue that the federal government has a larger obligation than maybe any of us to kind of provide that safety net. Do you have the state government? Ditto, more means of helping people. You have your local government, your city and your local governments, and you have your county government. Well. We county officials, I've noticed wanna help everybody, and it's just a natural passion. Some of the finest people I've ever met, and going on 20 years of being a county commissioner, are other commissioners from across the United States.
They are dedicated to doing a great job. They want to help their people in any way they can. There are eight other seven or eight other levels of responsibility for some of these issues that we just sort of take on and bring them under our umbrella 'cause we wanna help. I think we're gonna have to get some role clarification sometime.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it because, you know, there again, there are things that you must be able to do, and you are not, immune from rising costs of those services. So, whether it's, you know, every county is different. So, some do energy, some do water, some, I mean, trash collection, roads, and so forth. I'm talking to some county commissioners who are saying, listen, we're, we're cutting our teams down to four days a week 'cause we simply do not have the money in our, in our budgets to do that.
Alright, so this podcast, unfortunately, we talk a lot about policy letdowns, and I know that one of the things that I was really interested to talk to you about is policy lifts, and you all are policy centers. You know, you create PO local policies as well. And part of your work, and I know you because I've read about you both, you are both very much champions of civic engagement. And some of the challenges that I see across the board. I work with a lot of hospital boards, for example. It's just, I mean, you can fill those seats with warm bodies, but a warm body is not what you're looking for.
You're looking for someone who's engaged with the best of intentions that understands, to your point, that their role that they play defined. So, let's talk a little bit about, civic engagement and the importance of that piece of that puzzle, if you will.
Why is it so important for autonomous units of local governments to have robust civic engagement in the context of building, growing, and thriving? Because we talk a lot about resiliency and thriving, but civic engagement, without it, I don't see how that's possible. So, Commissioner Heimel, let's start with you. What does civic engagement look like in terms of, you know, how you put thought and action to that in your local county?
Paul William Heimel: Yet another extremely difficult challenge, especially in this era of entertainment all around you, when it's real hard to get people out of their homes when they have a 500-channel universe and all these streaming services and other temptations to just keep themselves entertained all the time.
That's just my little soapbox speech. We put out an appeal because we've appoint people to our housing authority, our redevelopment authority, our solid waste authority, our hospital authority advisory groups, and committees. probably a dozen, all volunteer positions. Unfortunately, the turnout has been, the response has, has been quite poor, and it's, so we have the same old great folks that will go year after year and reluctantly agree.
Yeah, I'll hang on for another term, but if you have that, magic solution to, shaking people out of the comfortable routines that they're in and emphasizing, you know, the importance of this public service. I'd love to, love to have it. I also, you talk about civic engagement, and I'm sure Hope and I are kind of on both sides of that desk.
If you wanna engage civically, you know, you really need to treat people with respect and courtesy, and I find that anybody that comes with a logical request and has done their homework and is interested in the county doing something for them, you know, you have an open ear toward it. And I think that applies to state and federal issues too, that I think Congress members and members of our state legislature, I meet with some face-to-face if you just take the time to do your own homework and be prepared instead of. I have nothing against rallies, believe me. We just came off of one.
Sometimes voices need to be heard, but an effective way of actually making that change, I think, is to just communicate with some depth to what you have to say and maybe persuade people to change their minds or see things your way.
Michelle Rathman: Conversation goes a long way, does it not? Instead of I. A no more clickbait, just conversation. What about you? Hope, what is it? What's civic engagement look like? Because you're involved with many other things, you know, aside from being a commissioner, like both of you have other jo, other interests and other responsibilities.
So what does civic engagement look like where you are? And it's in particular young people. And, but before we're done with this conversation, we are gonna be talking about some strategies to get younger people involved with civic engagement at the county level, 'cause I think, you know, at the end of the day, that's.
Their future and hope is not a strategy, although I'm sure Hope you have strategies for civic engagement. So lay it on me.
Hope Harmon: so, , when I was first elected in 2016, my campaign slogan was, " actions plus solutions equals change" that we're gonna. And in the midst of that, I started a nonprofit called Act for Change Group because a lot of people were saying, oh, we don't have these things, we don't, you know, we don't, we don't have activities to take kids to. We don't have this, we don't have that.
And I'm like, well, county government can't pay for everything, so I'm gonna start this nonprofit. And we would do some fundraising and we would do some events. And I've been really successful with getting people out to those events. And in the midst of getting people out to these events where we do some giveaways and we have other organizations, I'll invite the school system to come out because the school system wants to be able to connect.
So for Juneteenth, I had a giveaway and I invite the school system to come out because they were trying to get surveys done with parents. And so even in, you know, just, , inviting other electeds out to say, Hey, you know, we sometimes you have to meet people where they are. If we know they're all gonna be downtown at this a free event, let's go to them and not always expect them to come to us because we are just not gonna get anywhere that way.
And when I noticed is like, people always start on like a 10 and I'm just like, no, let's bring it back now to a one. Let's, let's talk on the one first before we get to the big, protest and all these other things. So, and it's just being open to say, Hey, I'm always available. If you wanna talk to me, we can set up a time.
And a lot of things that before were happening where people were just getting really upset really quickly about things have really been solved through simple conversations, or, Hey, you know, we are available. I'm not a commissioner for your area, but we all have the same county manager, so let me get you in contact with our county manager.
And, so that's really how I've been able to do a lot of civic engagement, really hosting events and just meeting people where they are. And the more people have become familiar with me, the more that I've come to become like a trusted voice to them, and they kinda understand that even when we make difficult decisions, they're the right decisions to be made.
Michelle Rathman: You know, we had on this podcast a while ago, a gentleman named Brooks Williams, and he wrote a book called Performative 'Performative Outrage.' I don't recall the entire subtitle, but you know, as I see it, so many people show up at a city council meeting or a hospital board meeting or a county, and to your point, they're already a 10. Instead of it, one. And I would imagine social media has helped to fuel some of that as well.
You know, Paul, I know that you have done, and I'm gonna just say it 'cause I think it's important for people to know in 2025 you are an honoree for the County Arts Leadership Award. So, I mean, I take it you like art, but you are actually seeing, I mean, we talk a lot about rural tourism, and it's kind of, you know, unless you're in a place where it's like, you know, I live in Illinois, so Metropolis has a 40-foot statue of Superman. They have Superman days, and Colorado has frozen dead guy days.
But I mean, we're also talking about ways to increase revenue sources for counties. And so could you talk to us a little bit about, kind of your stance, Paul, on around, the engagement with community around arts, music festivals and things of that nature, because I think it's really interesting point to make.
Paul William Heimel: Well, there's definitely a great return on investment, when you make a concerted effort to pursue arts and culture with gearing it toward community and economic development. It's a tough sell with some people. They think the arts is like a frivolous, you know, going to the candy store or something. But, it can be a foundation.
Here in our little rural Potter County. Interestingly during COVID, we had a number of people from the Philadelphia and other urban-type, suburban areas who wanted to get out into an area where the population was sparse. And they did, you know, less opportunity, less hazard of, making contact and spreading or picking up COVID.
And they came, and they did a lot of outdoor recreation. They swelled up our state parks to record levels. But what was really interesting about it is they liked it here. They got a little taste of rural living, and as the COVID pandemic faded the number of them that came back, the number of 'em that decided that they wanted to maybe buy a second home here. And when they did that, they were, interested in what we're doing in our communities and they started showing up at local festivals and things like that. We're really pretty tight. We kind of know each other here. And there were a lot of strange faces at some of our community events here.
The Arts and Culture award was based on resurrecting an old arts council. That was kind of a 1990s model, and modernizing it and getting involved with social media and other ways of, getting your messages out and embracing young people in particularly. Went into every school, all public-school students and got them involved in art and music projects and trying to develop them, which builds their loyalty and affection for their community.
One of the big reasons for the youth outmigration is it's just not cool here. There's a lot of reasons, economic and otherwise, but we don't have a reputation of having attractive communities here. And if they've, if they get it in the school and they're part of building it, and then when they're graduating, they might be more likely to come back.
And, and so we're working on, it's long term, it's years and years and years, but I think we're kind of turning that corner.
Michelle Rathman: But you know, it has like more staying power than anything I can imagine. It's 'cause youth are not gonna come back to your community 'cause you've got a data center. I mean, I, I, I would love to be proven wrong on that one.
All right. Before I let each of you go, I mean, there's so much we could talk about, but I do wanna talk about, how your advice, we don't want anyone to walk away from this show not giving kind of your sage advice about how we all are listeners, you know, we all live except for the state of Massachusetts in counties. Right?
So how do you, you know, when you say, if you complete this sentence, I love being a commissioner or county commissioner in rural America because, and I think you should think about it too. What are some of the benefits?
'Cause you, you, neither one of you are becoming an oligarch. You're not, you're not getting rich off the people, but you, it, it, you, it enriches you in some way, shape, or form, otherwise you wouldn't be there. So tell us why we should be thinking about, becoming actively involved with our own county.
Hope Harmon: So, I love being a county commissioner, and I decided to run to be a county commissioner because I wanted to be a voice for those who felt like they didn't have a voice.
Michelle Rathman: And so, others people can do, can do that too. They can put themselves in in your shoes, and you feel like you're making a difference.
Hope Harmon: I do, I feel like I'm making a difference. I grew up here. I mean, I've lived here my whole life. I went away to college in Tifton, came back, and worked at the local library. So, I've been here my whole life, and I would love for my kids to come back after they go to college and live here and see my grandchildren one day here.
So, I just love rural life and living. I go to the big city, and I'm happy to come back home with these five or six traffic lights where I know everybody. I just, I just love it here, and I just want people to be more involved and engaged and just really see the benefits of just rural America.
Michelle Rathman: You know, Paul, I want you to answer that too, and then maybe just tag on to that, you know, how could people best advocate for their county, because like we were talking about earlier, most of the time people don't even think twice about their county unless. If there's something wrong, I say most people wouldn't know they're alive unless they're complaining about something.
And so, you know, aside from why it's so fulfilling for you, why should other people sup why should people support their own county that they're in? I just think it's such a, a loss to this in this whole conversation. How important it is.
Paul William Heimel: That brings me to the issue of civics education in our schools. Another, my soapbox, the county government can improve your life and address your issues in ways that most folks just do not know. From the human services programs, like in Pennsylvania, we get inadequate funding, but we're expected to provide all the human service programs here.
You can affect that. You can get help for, you know, a place for mom and things like that. Your county government can facilitate a lot of the things that you need or the, the issues that, affect you. we're, we're working on bringing, we actually have it, it's a regional college here. They, you can take classes in school, you get credit college credits. Well that was done, that was instigated by county commissioners getting together in this region.
, I, and as far as what I like about the job, the, I was on the sidelines for, for 20 years as a muck raking news reporter and editor. And, I really gave our county commissioners hell back in the day. And I got to the stage of life, I had a, a career in communications with a, a corporation for about 10 years.
But this is like the final chapter for my life. And, I. My active life, I guess you could say, and I wanted to do something about all those problems that I've observed. There's a tremendous amount of satisfaction that comes with identifying a problem, putting together the the coalition that's needed, the partners overcoming all the obstacles.
Usually there's funding mindsets and other things that all to be addressed. We've done that here in our little county with criminal justice reform, and I could not be more proud of how we have brought reentry services and looking at addiction as a disease and looking at mental health as something that is not addressed.
And, our recidivism for those in the criminal justice system, has plummeted and we are getting help for addicts. We're getting help for those with mental illness, and we're working hands on with them. That was a goal many, many years ago. And so we've gotten somewhere with it. I only throw it out there as an example, not to brag about it 'cause it's still a work in progress, but that is a satisfaction and that ripple effect on lives with spouses or partners with children and grandchildren.
We have generational folks here whose, drug addiction and alcoholism and such have plagued families and by extension the communities for decades. We're making progress on it, and it starts with the county government that pulled it together, made it a priority, and put the partners together.
Michelle Rathman: Wow. And I would imagine to both of you that, you know, we're, we're all looking at, you know, from the county level that you're looking to increase economic development and so forth. I mean, to, to be an attractive place for PE for companies to go a healthier community is desired. A strong public health system, clean water. I mean, these are all the things that I know that you all are, are responsible for.
plus there's also some really fascinating career opportunities. You volunteer or you might get a stipend. I'm not sure the way it is, but you know, there's a lot of opportunities for people to think about working, talking about working close to home, working, you know as a part of that, as a part of a career option, for young people to see themselves in the seat of county governance.
Wow. All right. Before we let you both go, I mean it for the last time here. Let's make sure people know where to follow you, follow your work. Is there any place that they can follow you on social media? I know Commissioner Hope you have a podcast as well. Let's make sure people know where to find you, and we'll put it in our resources as well.
Hope Harmon: Okay, so you can just follow me on social media. I'm just Hope Harmon on Facebook. I'm Hopefully Sharon on Instagram, and I'm Hope Harmon on LinkedIn as well. And I do have a podcast that's out there. Haven't updated it in a while, but I plan to hop back into it like when I get time. It's, it's been a busy.
Things done a record in a while.
Michelle Rathman: Well, that's okay. The past episodes are fun to listen to as well. What about you? What's what? Where can we find you, Commissioner Heimel?
Paul William Heimel: Oh, just get on Google and type my name in the search bar. We do have a website called Potter County pa.gov. And we're, it's real new, but we wanna try to, put some timely news that's on there that's sort of reflecting the work that we're doing here. I try to keep kind of a low profile that way. But I just, am real impressed with Commissioner Harmon's work, and I'm definitely gonna become a fan after we finish up our broadcast
Michelle Rathman: Well, I'm so grateful to both of you, and I got a secret to tell you during COVID. I was 'cause my listeners know that I work in the field of rural health, and I had to travel, down to Texas from Illinois. And so, my husband said, let's get an RV so you don't have to fly or drive or anything. So, we did, we got an rv and one of our trips, we went to Pennsylvania for my husband to do a photography course, and he photographed the barns of Pennsylvania, which adore our house. All the photographs he took. So, to your point, the landscape in rural Pennsylvania is like I've never seen before. So
Paul William Heimel: Get up, get up to the top of the triangle. It's even nicer up here.
Michelle Rathman: Well, you send me an invitation and I'm there.
We are actually doing, we're on the road. We're doing a rural health, we're, we're calling it tracking transformation. We are tracking rural health transformation. I think county governments are an essential part of that conversation. So I might be tapping into you again to continue this conversation. I'm grateful to you both for joining us.
Paul William Heimel: Thank you
Hope Harmon: you so much.
Michelle Rathman: Alright. Even though we have to say goodbye to our guests, do not go anywhere 'cause we are not done with this dot-connecting conversation.
We'll be right back after a break.
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Michelle Rathman: Hey, thanks for staying with us, everyone. As I promised, I am so glad to be joined by this wonderful person sitting in front of me, which is Charles or Chuck Marohn, Founder and President of Strong Towns. Welcome to the Rural Impact. We are so glad you could join us. You, you have been very busy.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Yeah, I'm delighted to be here and you've been infinitely patient, your team has with my schedule, so thank you so much.
Michelle Rathman: Yes. If we have nothing, if we don't have patience, we have nothing left. So, Chuck, before we dive in, I want to share with our listeners, 'cause I never assume they know what Strong Towns is. So, what do you all do there? A snapshot of the impact that you have across the map, including some footprint in some of the smaller towns and rural places, because that is our focus.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Yeah. No, that's very good. Strong Towns started as a blog. Today we are really the largest advocacy organization about the way we build cities in North America. And we still do a lot of media work. We do a lot of articles, podcasts, video,
all this stuff is designed to be free to access and use by public officials, but we also do, we have a program called Local Conversations.
So, we've got groups in over 300 different cities around North America, big cities, medium-sized cities, small towns that are accessing our resources and using them to make their places stronger. Kind of the key insight of Strong Towns is that we've made our cities financially fragile, and I feel like the insight that I had as an engineer and a planner back working in small towns that you would not have gotten in a big city is just how fragile we are.
Small towns are way financially, they're way out on a limb in financial fragility, and it's really hard not to see it there, where I think in larger systems it can get covered up and, you know, overlooked. You deal with it all the time in a small town.
Michelle Rathman: Absolutely. You know, I'll share with you also, we had a couple of county commissioners on just before you were talking about, you know, the very real struggles of their budgets. And we're gonna get into the accounting piece of this in just a few minutes, but kind of as a follow-up here. At a national level, rural America in some places there is growth, but it's uneven. And I read a piece this week, and that only about half of rural counties gained population last year, while the other half continued to shrink, many of them persistently. So, this is according to the 2025 county population totals and components of Chance of Change report, which is a data set that's produced by the Census Bureau.
So, the report looks at which rural counties saw population increase, in some rural counties, just shy of about 30,000 residents. But there's a trick. There's a, there's a hook to that as to why, but there are others like counties across Central Appalachia, including most of West Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, Southwest Virginia. These areas continue to lose their population.
The same goes for the black belt in the South, leaving them to continue battling long, longstanding economic hardship, disinvestment, you know, the structural challenges, and they are not benefiting from the so-called rural comeback. I'm not sure who came up with that phrase, but as someone who works, who your work is focused on empowering leaders in communities to take control of their community's future, I wonder if you could share some of your thoughts on how this is accomplished. Kind of despite the overall, we would be remiss if we didn't look at all the cuts, all the policy shifts, all the population fluctuation, the overall uncertainty is hovering.
So how do we, how do we get there if we are, I love your bottom up, but when the top down is really heavy, how do we get there?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Yeah, it's a really, you get into the kind of the core of the issue. So, I'm wearing my Hazard, Kentucky. I just happened to put this on today 'cause I was there recently working on a book on economic development, and I think what they're doing there is really beautiful and important. Let me use that as like a frame to have this discussion.
You talk about population growth and the idea that half are growing and half are not as a defining feature. And I do think that it is a defining feature in the way we have organized our economy today. But if we look at the history of small towns and the history of rural areas, they were not, you know, if you go back pre-Great Depression really this kind of modern experiment in growth.
They, they were not places that had to grow in order to survive. They were places that could, you know, we talk about growth as something that is really good. It's like a good, like a sunny day. But if you have a few rainy days, like your farm doesn't collapse, your, your, your house doesn't fall in, your city doesn't get destroyed. We built an economy where if we have too many rainy days in a row, like things don't work anymore. And when you're on the most fragile end of that, things go bad really quickly.
, we in small towns have been induced to chase growth. At the federal level, really add to this overall idea of GDP growth and, you know, macro economics. and we've done it in a way that has made our cities really, really fragile. we've driven up our expenses, we have outsourced much of our wealth and much of our capacity and we've become reliant and dependent on those top-down systems. , we did a study here in Minnesota, well, let me talk about Hazard for a sec.
'cause I think hazard is fascinating because this is a city that has suffered deeply under this approach. , you know. You can go to Hazard and you can see all the growth they've tried to get out on the edge and they've gotten Dollar Generals and you know, all the, all the extractive kind of things that suck wealth outta the community.
In the downtown they've focused now made, made a pivot and a shift to what can we do here with our own people and our own stuff. And in some ways it's not that, like sexy and impressive because it's not big and flashy and bold. It's very real and it's generated a lot of heat, like a lot of momentum. And it starts with like little things.
We're, we're gonna do a little street art here. We're gonna try to keep this local business here. We're gonna get, you know, a local accountant that can serve the people in the community. It’s really doing these small incremental things that has given that city kind of this kick. And the coolest part about it is that it's not fragile, it's one of them.
And so, in a sense, like it's organic. It's like your arm. You're not gonna cut it off, you're not gonna lose it.
Michelle Rathman: You know, as I mentioned, we have these two county commissioners, one from Pennsylvania, one from Georgia, and both shared, as I said to you earlier, several challenges that they're facing resulting from federal and state policy shifts. So they weren't, they are fragile. They, might not have always been fragile, but because maybe industry has left or they've been in perpetual poverty areas, one in Georgia, so much of their funding has been tied to grants that come that flow.
And I mean, I'm in the healthcare world, we know that with rural hospitals. We understand what's coming. But you know, what it boils down to for them is a lack of resources, specifically the funds, putting them in a position to make very unpopular decisions like cutting services. There are streets and sanitation workers, maybe only four days a week.
They're, one has a public hospital, so they're looking at that. So, it's Strong Towns, you have a comprehensive understanding of how America's cities and towns are overwhelmed by increasing debt. And I love the accounting session section on yours because you talk about, like, what was, what is the quote that I saw in accounting?
It says that you have to "strong town only builds what it can afford to maintain and only makes promises it can afford to keep."
When the, when the well is dry, how do you do that?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: So, my undergraduate degree is in civil engineering, and I worked as a civil engineer for many years before I went back to school and got a master's in planning. And then I worked as an engineer planner for, you know, about 15 years after that. One of the things in small towns that was so easy to do was to get money, a grant, a low-interest loan, some kind of assistance to do economic development.
And what that generally looked like is you build new infrastructure out on the edge of town and try to attract someone to come and, and like you, like be part of your place. Those projects, if we're honest with ourselves, I made money as an engineer, as a consultant, working on those projects. All the contractors made money working on those projects. Sometimes we could subsidize a business to move in, but you know, generally these places sit empty or underperform in some way. Yeah, they're speculative.
But the very real thing is that now all of a sudden all of these taxpayers in this city who were struggling before now have a mile more of sewer and water to maintain, two miles more of street to maintain, more pipes, they gotta take care of more streets. They have to plow more ditches, they have to mow, and all of a sudden, what you see is that your resources just get spread out in a way where they're not really effective anywhere.
Your taxes go up, your services go down, and you have this long-term liability. You gotta fix and maintain this stuff sitting out there like a ticking time bomb. And when those things start to come due, you get what your elected officials are describing to you is this kind of catastrophic, like we just can't do it. That there, there are no easy cuts now there are no ways to smooth this over.
As part of that process, what you see is that these local governments become very desperate, and I'm gonna say this, I see a whole bunch of people who run for office and who, you know, step up to be local leaders in a very admirable way. And they wind up in the city, or in the county, or in the government somehow, and they realize that there, there just isn't a way to make this work. And oftentimes, you end up becoming predatory. In other words, I'm charged with keeping the government running. The only way we can do this is to raise taxes, cut services, find a way to fine people, or assess people in ways that are not quite legal, but like we can get away with.
And it has this real kind of negative spiral on our culture, our society, because small towns, you know, rural areas, the strength that we have is we have a certain proximity and culture that, you know, you, you get the anonymity of the big city. You don't have that in rural areas. We literally, like, that's where the barn raising term comes from.
You know, we help each other out. And, when you have an economic model where the highest level of cooperation, which is a local government, becomes predatory on people and can't meet its promises. A lot of the social cohesion starts to break down and become really destruct destructive. And so, you know, to me that's where we need to start this conversation, is how do we come together and have some real dialogue about A, our dependence on the state and federal government for our very existence.
And then b, what it looks like to wean ourselves off of that. 'Cause it, it's not an easy thing to do.
Michelle Rathman: Well, I think the choice is being made for us.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: In some ways,
Michelle Rathman: In many ways. The choice is being made, made for us. I wanna, shift over to housing because everywhere I go in rural America, and I mean everywhere, I have not heard, and if you are a rural leader out there and you tell me otherwise, we welcome you.
Housing is a significant challenge. Like for example, in education or healthcare workforce. When there's no housing, it's very challenging to recruit a, a physician, you know, in their family. So, you've got some great principles around this housing everywhere. Tell us about how you adapt that principle, those principles, to a smaller or rural community where there's no developers going in there saying, Hey, we're gonna build, you know, X amount of affordable housing.
It's like tiny homes for rural tourism and not to help the local population.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: So, at the end of World War II, we as a country wanted to inject growth into our economy through cities. We created zoning codes and building codes and infrastructure investments, and we came up with this model. And if you look at big cities, you see what happened. Sometimes we call it white flight, we call emptying out of cities, major cities had huge collapse in population, and we spread people out on the outside.
When you look at small towns, even though these are fundamentally different kinds of places, we treat them like they are a big city and, and so we flatten them out and spread them out. If you do that in a major metro area, you get fragility. If you do it in a small town, you get insolvency really, really quick. Like things stop working very, very quickly.
We have adopted the suburban development model, brought it to a small-town setting, and you know, it adds huge amounts of bureaucracy and red tape. It doesn't get you the kind of growth that you're, that you see in the suburbs. It's, it's more hit and miss, you don't lose a lot of opportunities for investments that were very normal and natural before we did this.
And so, I can look out at my neighborhood here in my small town and see a neighborhood that's basically not changed much in the last 50 or 60 years, despite there being tons of opportunity to fill in houses between other houses to make the neighborhood more financially productive.
You know, my church is right there. You and I are talking on Good Friday, ahead of Easter weekend. This is the only time that the parking lot of the church will be full. But the church, actually, because the land is so cheap and the properties are so cheap, has bought up the neighborhood and torn down the houses for parking.
These are things that, if you're in a big city, are an annoyance. In a small town, it makes it so there's no housing. The housing is here; you can't afford. There's, there's, there's not enough tax base and, and, and too much expense. This is a development model that was given to us to say, here's how you grow, and it's actually grown us into insolvency.
Michelle Rathman: What's the flip side? What is, what is the better way look like?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: It. We talk about specifically on housing, but really across the board, that we need to get our incremental development approach back. We need to be able to, not right now, if we're gonna add 40 new homes, what that means is that we run sewer and water and a new road and build 40 homes out on the edge of town.
If I look at this neighborhood right here, we could add 200 homes within this neighborhood, without any additional public expense, in a way that would work out really, really nicely, but it would be one here, one there, one like tucked in back over here, and that's just a different development model.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. I, I just returned from Florida, and visiting a community where there was nothing, and now there's like a thousand new, exactly the same homes on these slabs that they have. I mean, I've, when I, when I drive through Colorado and other places, I go, I wonder what, how the infrastructure's gonna support all this, and for how long. So, I mean, I'm always thinking about what's happening underground and not just what we see on the surface.
Hmm. Alright. So speaking of surface, let's talk about safe and productive streets. 'cause I gotta tell you, Chuck, I, last year, or this, oh gosh, 2025 it's a little blur for me right now. I drove across the state of Massachusetts, and you know, really talking to a lot of rural community benefit organizations that are doing amazing things in their communities. Very strong town.
It feels like they're doing, and many of them were focused on safe and productive streets, because rural is all but missing from this conversation. People are like, well, why can't you just walk from here to there? But it's not safe, in the hill towns is one place that I can think of, and they're really working on making their you know, safe and productive streets so that people can be pedestrians, people can ride their bikes, and so forth. So, to address their mobility channel challenges and so forth. What can strong talents teach us about leading these efforts, you know, to achieve safe streets?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Yeah. Here, here, I think is the big insight that ties the previous discussion we were having with this one. Again, we have adopted a set of standards that were put in place at the end of World War II to grow, grow suburbs. And if you go to central cities today, if you go to New York City where there's tons of traffic. Their streets are actually narrower.
Their streets actually cost less to build than what we build in most small towns. In most small towns, we build these very wide streets, really, really expensive infrastructure, very wide. And we don't have the traffic volume, we don't have the congestion, we don't, we are building, we, we have basically like copied a model from somewhere else, brought it in, and put it in our places without calibrating it to the scale of what we're doing.
And so, what we wind up with are streets that are really expensive, really wide, actually degrade the tax base. That's the productive part. Like it makes the street less valuable, and it makes it really dangerous to be around, not just for people walking and biking, but for people driving. It makes it really dangerous.
When you look at traffic fatalities. Rural areas are the highest level of fatalities by far in the country of people like running into trees, running into poles. It's not the tree in the pole, it's the fact that we've over-engineered the streets, and we have no congestion in a sense that slows people down the way it happens in most major cities.
So you can get away with this from a safety standpoint in a major city because you have all this over-engineering, but people have to drive slow 'cause there's so much congestion. Out in the country, people just fly around, and they just drive really, really fast. And you know, statistically speaking, this is the most kind of dangerous system to build. And it's ubiquitous across rural America.
Michelle Rathman: Chuck, is it because, I mean, I'm trying to connect the dots here.
Is it that policymakers who are saying, yes, this is a great idea, are they, are we who, it seems to me that the engine there, there's people missing from the conversation that could provide sage wisdom about so policy is not kind of matching up with expertise. It feels like that.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: So let me, let me give you this from like a small-town perspective.
I grew up in this, you know, I grew up in Brainerd, Minnesota, 15,000 people. Who has the expertise on how to build roads? Not us. We would go to the next biggest city. Where would they go? They would go to the next biggest city. Where would they go? The next biggest city.
I remember doing zoning work in a very rural town here, probably 20 years ago, and I was at their planning commission meeting. And you go through the criteria they have to approve a variance. And one of the criteria was, does this impact the circulation of light and air?
Okay. This particular variance was like a porch edition on a farmhouse on a 200-acre farm. Why are we talking about the circulation of light and air? Because this ordinance that the city was using was copied from another ordinance, which is copied from another, which was copied from another, another, another.
And the original source one was New York City, where when they would build skyscrapers, they would have to step them back so that you could get light and air circulation. So, the code that we had in this 200-acre farm setting was a derivative of the New York's Manhattan zoning code. What you see is that we have never created a uniquely small town set of regulatory standards.
What we have done is we've adopted and copied what other experts have done, and the experts have all been about building basically suburban development post World War II, which is not what a small town is.
Michelle Rathman: I'm stuck on that. You know, after all the copies were made, it ended up being for New York City in a, you know, small town. It's just astonishing to me.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Well, I, I mean, I remember growing up here and like there's a certain you know, the big city is where all the smart people are, and the people've got it figured out are, and as a professional, you know, you're like, well, I'm, I'm trying to adopt the best practices of my industry. Where do those best practices come from?
They don't come from here; they come from somewhere far away. There's always a joke in a consulting world that, you know, you're only an expert if you live more than an hour away. You know, and that's very true. Like I personally am like a recognized kind of international expert. But I'm not here in my hometown because these guys know me, right? Like, I grew up here. so, you
Michelle Rathman: I get it.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: that's, part of, if we were in Manhattan and you had like the world's foremost expert living in Manhattan, they would say, of course they live here. Like, we understand that.
In a small town it just doesn't operate that way. Like we just, it's incompatible with our culture. And that's kind of a universal small-town thing, right?
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. Untapped. I mean, it's untapped resources, unfortunately. Well, and hopefully, this will spur some ideas. Okay. Before, there's a couple other things I wanna ask you before we go, you know, I'm gonna just, I'm not gonna put you on the spot 'cause I know there's nothing you can't answer.
In 2024, March, 2024, you wrote Strong Towns Guide to the Election Year, which I thought was just fabulous. We are now just a handful of months away from the 2026 midterms very weird time that we're in, and because our podcast does focus on connecting the dots between policy and the quality of life, Strong Towns is as you describe a bottom-up revolution to rebuild American prosperity.
What can you offer our listeners who find themselves struggling with the notion of the bottom-up approach when top-down, as I said earlier, is considerably weighting, you know, a lot of weighty
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Yeah.
Michelle Rathman: How do they make those decisions?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: It's a really tough question. So, last week, the city council in Minneapolis, the largest city in my state, had a two-hour debate over Gaza policy. Why? Like what? What does that have to do with keeping the streets clean, picking up trash, and keeping the parks? I have no idea.
But that was like the thing that they talked about. And you're like, well, that's ridiculous. I can't tell you how many meetings I've been to in small towns where we're talking about the Second Amendment, and we're talking about abortion rights, and we're talking about, you know, at a city council meeting where you literally have like nothing you can do about that.
While at the same time, like the budget isn't balanced, the parks aren't clean, we're not plowing the snow off the roads when it snows. You know, I,
Michelle Rathman: We still don't have broadband for everybody where,
Chuck Marohn Jr.: yeah. Like the basic things.
Michelle Rathman: Mm-hmm.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: I, feel like what I feel like we've gone through a moment that history will look at kind of the same way it looked at, we look today at like Gutenberg and the printing for us, that's what the internet and the, you know, social media technology is.
And we just have not figured out as a culture how to assimilate it into our lives. And so, when you go to a coffee shop, and you say, what are the big issues here? I really think that like 50, 60 years ago, people would've said, well, you know, I'm a little ticked off about, Eisenhower, but, geez, like the, the park up the street and the this over there.
And then if you go to a coffee shop today, it's all Gaza, Iran, you know, national policy. Trump, Trump, Trump. And we are sucked into this vortex that actually has less, it's more abstract, it has less meaning to what we do today. So, what we tell people is sure, be aware of national issues. Spend 5% of your time on that, but spend 95% of your time on the things you can directly affect, which is the stuff right outside your door, your neighbors, the people around you.
That's how we start a bottom-up revolution, and really, that's how we affect those big things too, is by doing the little things.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, we, we were talking earlier about civic engagement and, and how that diminishes when you're looking at it, the policies that you, you have one, you have one vote, you have one voice, and those matters, but at the end of the day, you have so much more to say what's happening locally.
Okay. Last question to you. For those who are struggling, they want to learn more. We talked about today about all the things that you talked about. How do they respond? What is your call to action for people to respond about, building, I'm calling it building your bench, the year of building your bench, to enact or begin the transformation closer to home?
What, say you?
Chuck Marohn Jr.: I gotta say, we end every one of our podcasts with the same thing. Keep doing what you can to build a Strong Town.
And the idea is that we're all called to do different things. Some of us are called to just be a friendlier neighbor. Some of us are called to pick up the trash in front of our house. And on our block. Some of us are called to run for city council or organize a, a committee or serve in some capacity. We all have something that we can do to make our communities a better place. And you know, the question that we pose to people is like, what is that? Strongtowns.org/local. We have our local groups, and you can check and see if there's one in your area.
If there's not, we've got a program for starting one. And the idea is we just try to get people together, assist them, help them, give them some guidance and direction on how they can be most effective, but really get them filling in that layer of civic infrastructure that has vanished and disappeared.
I mean, this is, this is the bowling alone problem, right? How do we rebuild that layer of civic infrastructure? I would say this is really important in a major city. It's, it's really important in a suburb. In a small town, it's the difference between existing a generation from now and not.
Michelle Rathman: That is so true. Oh my gosh, Chuck, I'm so really appreciative for your time. We are gonna make sure that we put links up to everything that people need to know about Strong Towns on our website, theruralimpact.com. So thank you for joining us, and keep doing what you're doing. We really appreciate you.
Chuck Marohn Jr.: Well, keep doing what you can do to build a strong town, and I really, I love this conversation, and I'm grateful that people are having it. So, thanks for everything you do.
Michelle Rathman: Awesome. Thank you. All right. For the rest of you, do not go anywhere 'cause I'll be back with some closing thoughts. We'll be right back.
My thanks to Hope, Paul, and Chuck for all of their contributions and for the great conversation today. We know these are not light subjects. At the end of the day, our goal here is that you have become enlightened in some way, shape, or form, inspired maybe to make a difference in the rural place that you live in or serve.
So that's what we're all about, is making an impact. I wanna quick reminder for you that you can find all the resources that we talked about today on our website, which is also the place where you can just hit that subscribe button. Give us a few pieces of information, and we'll make sure that you receive our e-blast in your inbox so you can stay updated on all the conversations that we've had past and coming up to you in the future.
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I wanna make sure I thank Brea Corsaro and Sarah Garvin for all their hard work behind the scenes, and to the rest of you, until we are together again, as I always do, I invite you to take the best possible care of yourself, and the best of your ability, all those around you. We will see you again on a brand-new episode of The Rural Impact.
